tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post5045453609419963420..comments2023-11-02T06:08:18.683-07:00Comments on Atheist's Wager: Christianity vs. Wagerism Part I: The OriginsEvanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03596383179921442046noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-22666486257220822722007-05-29T00:34:00.000-07:002007-05-29T00:34:00.000-07:00No harps and puffy clouds in Christian Heaven, bib...No harps and puffy clouds in Christian Heaven, bible student? Then forget it- I'll go check out what Mohammed has to offer...zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-58377437513239105622007-05-28T09:04:00.000-07:002007-05-28T09:04:00.000-07:00@IljaHellThe book of Revelation contains many symb...@Ilja<BR/><BR/><B>Hell</B><BR/><BR/>The book of Revelation contains many symbols. In a quick-and-dirty response, back on the Christian Hope page I explained:<BR/><BR/>Don’t worry, “lake with burning sulfur” is as symbolic as a seven headed beast. What is thrown in before, is death and Hades (Revelation 20:14), which don’t burn, and Satan and his demons (Revelation 20:10) who being spirit, cannot be hurt by literal fire. <BR/><BR/>It symbolizes final destruction, called second because it occurs after resurrection (judgment day).<BR/><BR/>Or maybe you have been taken in by the falsehood called “hellfire doctrine”.<BR/><BR/>Back one page (An Unlikely Mormon Apologist), I let zilch know:<BR/><BR/> “The one who sins is the one who will die.”--Ezekiel 18:4 (Today's New International Version)<BR/><BR/>Adam (and so his offspring) lost the gift of everlasting life, through disobedience. In the same version of the Bible Genesis 2:17 quotes God: "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will certainly die." <BR/><BR/>The immortal soul doctrine has it’s origin in Genesis 3:4: "You will not certainly die," the serpent said to the woman.” <BR/><BR/>Tell a lie often enough, and you could confuse even a great thinker, in Vienna.<BR/><BR/>Plato also pushed the idea that the body dies, yet the soul is lives on.<BR/><BR/>Hell is just bad-mouthing God. Who could love someone, who forever tortures imperfectly born people, for their imperfection?<BR/><BR/>The ruse has worked for years. Choose life!<BR/><BR/>God tells us how he feels about the idea, observing human sacrifice in Canaan, at Jeremiah 7:31. <BR/><BR/><BR/><B>Heaven and Earth</B><BR/><BR/>A limited number of humans will have everlasting life in heaven, but no harps and puffy clouds. Revelation 5:10 speaks of them when it says: “and made them to our God kings and priests; and they shall reign over the earth.”<BR/><BR/>Since kings rule over people, this refers to a heavenly government (Daniel 2:44).<BR/><BR/>Everlasting life on earth is what God intended for Adam and Eve. Though they blew it, God hasn’t changed his mind. (Psalms 115:16; Isaiah 45:18). He told the first humans to expand paradise (Garden of Eden) to cover the whole earth (Genesis 1:28).<BR/><BR/>I was never enticed by the reward of heaven. When the truth found in the Bible was explained to me, I went from the being frightened of an unsure future, to relieved that there was a way to paradise. <BR/><BR/>I still enjoy helping others understand that way.Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-21529285293357217142007-05-26T03:18:00.000-07:002007-05-26T03:18:00.000-07:00“Christianity” may be as diverse as atheism. I spe...“Christianity” may be as diverse as atheism. I speak for Bible student, let other “Christians” speak for themselves. <BR/><BR/>Sometimes Bible scholars come in handy. I like David Guzik's explanation of who hardened Pharaoh's heart at:<BR/><BR/>http://www.studylight.org/com/guz/view.cgi?book=ex&chapter=4&verse=21#Ex4_21<BR/> <BR/>Please don’t be limited by BibleGateway. Two online bibles that translate correctly (there are probably more), can be found at:<BR/><BR/>http://www.watchtower.org/e/bible/index.htm<BR/><BR/>for the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures and<BR/><BR/>http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=Exodus+4%3A21&<BR/>section=0&translation=reb&oq=&sr=1<BR/><BR/>for the J.B. Rotherham Emphasized Bible.Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-63447636841800793012007-05-26T00:56:00.000-07:002007-05-26T00:56:00.000-07:00@ BSLet us agree that you will not use your own tr...@ BS<BR/><BR/>Let us agree that you will not use your own translation of the bible, but instead one that is established and can be double-checked by everyone who wants. I would suggest NKJV, since you have just quoted it. The problem is, that if every other translation found on BibleGateway contains "<A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%204:21;&version=50;" REL="nofollow">harden</A> his <A HREF="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus%2010:20;&version=50;" REL="nofollow">heart"</A> in both exodus verses i asked for, and only you posses a different translation, then you cannot speak for the majority of Christians, since their versions read differently. It's like if i had a problem with some book and would write my own translation where the problematic parts are defused. The obvious solution would be to work with the Hebrew original, but this is beyond my language skills.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00916512943058406592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-58246354217004551812007-05-25T19:45:00.000-07:002007-05-25T19:45:00.000-07:00@ IljaI raised someone’s ire when I posted this 3 ...@ Ilja<BR/><BR/>I raised someone’s ire when I posted this 3 weeks ago.<BR/><BR/><I>I checked, my Bible says “let Pharaoh’s heart become obstinate” (or unresponsive) at Exodus 7:3; 8:15; 9:12; 10:1; 11:10 and Romans 9:18. Maybe this is why I stayed with these folks. (If you would like a copy, let me know.) <BR/><BR/>Considering that God hasn’t made atheist harden their hearts, but lets them, this makes sense.</I><BR/><BR/>Exodus 4:21 and 10:20 also agree.<BR/><BR/>(Exodus 4:21) And Jehovah went on to say to Moses: “After you have gone and returned to Egypt see that YOU men actually perform all the miracles that I have put in your hand before Pharaoh. As for me, I shall let his heart become obstinate; and he will not send the people away.<BR/><BR/>(Exodus 10:20) However, Jehovah let Pharaoh’s heart become obstinate, and he did not send the sons of Israel away.<BR/><BR/><BR/> A week earlier I posted:<BR/><BR/><I>Christian, may agree with God’s view of homosexuals but need to follow the counsel in Paul’s letter to the Romans 12:17-19: Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. (New King James Version)</I><BR/><BR/>Jesus’ brother Jude wrote to the Christian congregation, in verses 22 and 23:<BR/><BR/>“Also, continue showing mercy to some that have doubts; save [them] by snatching [them] out of the fire. But continue showing mercy to others, doing so with fear, while YOU hate even the inner garment that has been stained by the flesh.”<BR/><BR/>These scriptures argue against hate and slaying.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Rape?<BR/><BR/>The miracle is virgin birth, He never touched her. He doesn’t have a body. <BR/>Mary’s problem wasn’t with the one who impregnated her. It was with those who didn’t believe it.<BR/><BR/>Next three, later.Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-22811151514677506252007-05-25T00:54:00.000-07:002007-05-25T00:54:00.000-07:00@ thelistener: if you just take out the "God" stuf...@ thelistener: if you just take out the "God" stuff, I agree with most of what you say. And most Christians I know are also very nice people.<BR/><BR/>Speaking for myself, I never consciously chose to not believe in God- rather, I never chose to believe in God. I did choose to not believe in Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy, but since I somehow never started believing in God, I didn't ever have to stop.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-23093110718739596342007-05-24T15:08:00.000-07:002007-05-24T15:08:00.000-07:00@ AWI realized, the Noah thing, but Ilja asked for...@ AW<BR/><BR/>I realized, the Noah thing, but Ilja asked for it. <BR/><BR/>All the students, Bible, Mrs. and Sprout are preparing for our three day “Bible Study Pow Wow” and a wedding on Monday. All are invited (to the Pow Wow). If you are in the NYC area and would like to attend, e-mail me.<BR/><BR/>I’ll see if I can’t steal a few minutes to answer you guys, this weekend.<BR/><BR/>--Thanks for the encouragement, listener. I’ve also enjoyed your posts.Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-24944733027446301692007-05-24T13:36:00.000-07:002007-05-24T13:36:00.000-07:00@ Warren you say:"I really can't believe that you ...@ Warren you say:<BR/><BR/>"I really can't believe that you would say that god provides food and housing. I mean you can't be serious and if you are then perhaps you should seek out some homeless people and explain to them why god didn't see fit to provide them with a regular meal and a roof over their heads. Further more if god is in charge of food and housing then why doesn't he just cast out and starve us nonbelievers?"<BR/><BR/><BR/>When I stated that god provides food an housing, I meant in the sense that he created such things for us to use. It is man's own selfishness, corruption and the love of money that have led to certain humans being homeless and starving. <BR/><BR/><BR/>God also gave humans free will so that they were not merely robots. God will not make you believe in, or follow (Figuratively speaking) him. <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Therefore he would not punish his own creation, whom he gave free will, by starving and therefore killing them for not believing in him.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Also, for all readers of this blog, i would like to say that I am NOT an atheist hater.<BR/><BR/><BR/>I speak to people about religion and god whenever i can because i enjoy the conversations that suround them. And I must say that atheists in general, are very nice people. <BR/><BR/><BR/>It is only there choice not to believe in god that confuses me.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>Also, my typing errors are duly noted. As you can see my "Shift" button is taking a rest in comparison to Previous posts.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>@ Bible Student:<BR/><BR/><BR/>I Have to say i really enjoy your thoughts. Your answers have been the most satifying of anyone on this blog, in my opinion.<BR/><BR/><BR/>Untill next post,<BR/>thelistenerthelistenerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13042894537055100193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-80131053478773546762007-05-24T13:32:00.000-07:002007-05-24T13:32:00.000-07:00This comment has been removed by the author.thelistenerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13042894537055100193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-55785703032003174402007-05-24T09:24:00.000-07:002007-05-24T09:24:00.000-07:00I will cheerfully admit error when I say God kille...I will cheerfully admit error when I say God killed everyone but Noah. I meant to say Noah and his family. I stand by everything else.Evanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03596383179921442046noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-66571887337993165092007-05-24T07:38:00.000-07:002007-05-24T07:38:00.000-07:00"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abomina..."But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."<BR/><BR/>Hmmm. Since I'm at least three of those things (you can guess which ones), it looks pretty bad for me. Unless perhaps μέρος, translated "part" here, could mean an island in the lake with a nice view of the burning damned. But alas, it seems to be pretty unequivocal that μέρος means "part" in the sense of "lot, apportioned destiny". Oh well.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-46767991620040723772007-05-24T06:47:00.000-07:002007-05-24T06:47:00.000-07:00@ BSPedantically speaking, yes. But it's like sayi...@ BS<BR/><BR/>Pedantically speaking, yes. But it's like saying "god spared 0,0008% of the population" as opposed to "0,0001%". Still a genocide in my eyes. Not to mention, that the entire story is borrowed from they Babylonians.<BR/><BR/>But let me guess what's wrong with <B>"which form a pretty good foundation for hating homosexuals"</B>: The bible doesn't tell one to hate homosexuals, but to simply slay them without any emotions?<BR/><BR/><B>"God instead decides to “harden his heart”"</B>: Let me hear Exodus 4:21 and 10:20 from your correct translation.<BR/><BR/><B>"(one might say raped)"</B>: Did god ask Mary if she would allow to impregnate her? If no, that's non-consensual sex with a fictional deity, or rape by a fictional deity by my definition of rape. And doesn't sex outside of the marriage count as adultery? So this must by why god is hiding from everyone: he's afraid of being stoned for breaking his own law?<BR/><BR/><B>"God strikes a strange bargain with Abraham trading the descendant’s of Abraham foreskins for the land of Israel."</B>: let's leave out the word "strange", as it's Wager's personal interpretation. What were the details of that deal in "reality"?<BR/><BR/><B>"because it opened the gates of Heaven to everyone, even a sinner like you!"</B>: What does this quote say: “Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”? What do i have to do in order not to get into heaven, if i'm allowed to break the commandments and teach others to do the same?<BR/><BR/><B>"is still a fear technique used against unbelievers."</B>: Umm, let me guess, fear is used against believers as well?<BR/><BR/><B>"threatening people with hell"</B>: here's what the Revelation has to tell us about it:<BR/><BR/>"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8, KJV)<BR/><BR/>Which part of your definitions of "threaten", "people" and "hell" does this quote not satisfy?<BR/><BR/>And i would be delighted to recieve answers to all of these points.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00916512943058406592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-49378879679560472882007-05-24T05:44:00.000-07:002007-05-24T05:44:00.000-07:00@ ilja- of course, not all chimps can read, but ma...@ ilja- of course, not all chimps can read, but maybe they were being helpful because they heard a televangelist or a Christian radio program? Just speculating...<BR/><BR/>@ bible student: you say<BR/><BR/>"There are also tangible rewards. If you have better way to get there, by all means, get there."<BR/><BR/>Of course there are tangible rewards- we wouldn't have religion if there weren't. As I said, religion can help to build societies by laying down rules, and civilization brings tangible rewards. There is also the tangible reward, for many, of feeling part of a community of like-minded people, and of feeling at one with God. But as kitty said, that doesn't make religion true.<BR/><BR/>And there is satisfaction in being an atheist too. I love life all the more because it's short and it's all we have. And I'm not subject to the arbitrary laws of a jealous and vengeful (His own Words) Big Guy in the Sky.<BR/><BR/>Whether my "there" is the same as yours, we'll never know. But my "there" is a pretty good place to be.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-33286597532556714752007-05-24T04:48:00.000-07:002007-05-24T04:48:00.000-07:00@ IljaThe first one “only Noah.”2 Peter 2:5 “and s...@ Ilja<BR/><BR/>The first one “only Noah.”<BR/><BR/>2 Peter 2:5 “and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;”<BR/><BR/>Genesis 7:23 “And every living thing was destroyed that was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and creeping things, and birds of the heavens; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only was left, and they that were with him in the ark.”<BR/><BR/>Genesis 8:18 “And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him:”<BR/><BR/>Agreed?Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-76318948659546576962007-05-24T04:03:00.000-07:002007-05-24T04:03:00.000-07:00@ Bible studentIf you have a point to make, lettin...@ Bible student<BR/><BR/>If you have a point to make, letting others do the research on your statements is lazy and arrogant. But in fact, that's the normal Christian attitude of "here's what i was told to believe and now prove me wrong", while IMHO it would be rather correct if the one who makes a statement backs it up with reasoning, or in your case, bible quotations.<BR/><BR/>So let's start with the first one and go through all of them. Please educate me according to your correct bible translation, for i have lost the hope of finding one that's free from mistakes.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00916512943058406592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-36582210104332900632007-05-24T03:50:00.000-07:002007-05-24T03:50:00.000-07:00@ kitty and zilchI think that's simply empathy, an...@ kitty and zilch<BR/><BR/>I think that's simply empathy, an innate ability, and the reasoning is known under the name of the <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethic_of_reciprocity" REL="nofollow">"Golden rule"</A>. Would i like to be robbed or knocked down in the street? No, so i should not treat others this way.<BR/><BR/>Though of course i can already sense some Christians typing "but that was our god who taught the humankind this", 1) there are older sources, 2) it was shown that chimps as well as 2-year old children (could be wrong on the age though, but anyway too young to have been indoctrinated by Christians already, to test that was on of the goals of the experiment) help others without being asked to. The experiment setup was that a person dropped something from the table and pretended to be unable to reach it again, and both chimps and children picked up the object and gave it to that person. So Christianity didn't bring empathy to the world, it just tried to scare those who don't empathize with others with eternal damnation.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00916512943058406592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-11497780861561862552007-05-24T03:35:00.000-07:002007-05-24T03:35:00.000-07:00@kittyI was suggesting nothing of the kind. What I...@kitty<BR/><BR/>I was suggesting nothing of the kind. What I saw was the hole in zilch’s statement:<BR/><BR/>“Religions reward with heaven and punish with hell (or similar divine goodies and baddies), and often avail themselves of earthly punishments as well (stoning adulterers, etc).”<BR/><BR/>There are also tangible rewards. If you have better way to get there, by all means, get there. <BR/><BR/>@ Ilja <BR/><BR/>Which one would you like to discuss? I said that AW misrepresented “a well known alternative.” I highlighted statements that are biblically inaccurate. Get a good translation and check for yourself. It’s pointless to argue where we already agree.Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-74067803560151873872007-05-24T02:42:00.000-07:002007-05-24T02:42:00.000-07:00@ kitty- what you said. I've heard over and over ...@ kitty- what you said. I've heard over and over again from Christians, "If you don't believe in God, what's to stop you from robbing banks and knocking down old ladies in the street?" Well, whatever it is that stops most of us from being naughty, it seems to work pretty well most of the time- atheists are no more likely to be nasty than Christians are.<BR/><BR/>Another couple of quotes which go well with yours from Shaw and Einstein are from the Dalai Lama:<BR/><BR/>"Whether one believes in a religion or not, and whether one believes in rebirth or not, there isn't anyone who doesn't appreciate kindness and compassion."<BR/><BR/>"The ultimate authority must always rest with the individual's own reason and critical analysis."zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-66978447188611210532007-05-24T02:02:00.000-07:002007-05-24T02:02:00.000-07:00@BSAre you suggesting that religion is necessary f...@BS<BR/><BR/>Are you suggesting that religion is necessary for morality?!<BR/><BR/>Oooherrrr!<BR/><BR/>Maybe the reason why no-one has suggested this is because we are atheists with morals and don't think that religion would make a blind bit of difference - except possibly in terms of the amount we think it is reasonable to intrude into people's lives.<BR/><BR/>Well that's me anyway!<BR/><BR/>Whether or not religion gives some people morals does not demonstrate in any way the "truth" as to the existence of god.<BR/><BR/>A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.<BR/>-Albert Einstein<BR/><BR/><BR/>And look - for "religion makes people happy" (which has much of the same problems as "religion makes people moral"<BR/><BR/>"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." -George Bernard ShawCatehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07545893381630826631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-29744188528496116392007-05-24T01:46:00.000-07:002007-05-24T01:46:00.000-07:00@ Bible studentAlthough you have highlighted the p...@ Bible student<BR/><BR/>Although you have highlighted the passages that you regard wrong in Wager's text, without giving a reason for why they are wrong and what would be correct instead, it's quite pointless. Has he used the wrong word? Has he got the whole concept wrong? etc.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00916512943058406592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-33263863904384956692007-05-23T23:37:00.000-07:002007-05-23T23:37:00.000-07:00@ thelistener: Sigh. You say:"Am I Reading That ...@ thelistener: Sigh. You say:<BR/><BR/>"Am I Reading That Correctly Or Shall We Go Through Yet Another Constanly Repeated Atheist Loop Of The Same Old Story?"<BR/><BR/>Uh, maybe you are a good listener, but you are not a good reader. Please read through my comment to the end.<BR/><BR/>And I'll echo Wil: is it really necessary to Capitalize Every Word? It doesn't make you more credible, and it's tiresome to read. Capital letters have a Purpose: to identify the beginnings of sentences, to distinguish proper nouns, and to highlight Important Concepts. But if Everything is Highlighted, Pretty Soon the Effect is Lost.<BR/><BR/>Here's a comparison: I'm a musician. There are ways of ornamenting melodies, to make certain parts more interesting or important. One common ornament is the trill: a rapid alteration between two notes. Used artistically, it can add a lot to a melody. Bbut iif yyou ttrill eevery nnote, iit bbecomes ttiresome, and the trill has no meaning any more. Do you see what I mean? Take Wil the editor's advice, and give the caps a rest, please.<BR/><BR/>@ bible student: yes, I've heard both these rationalizations for the killing of the Amalekite babies. But if God will take the innocent souls to His Bosom, why not kill <I>all</I> babies, including your own, to save them from the sorrows of life? Why treat anyone with fairness or kindness, if God is going to separate the sheep from the goats anyway?<BR/><BR/>If you believe that it's alright to kill babies, or burn witches, or stone women raped in the city, because the "good" ones will go to Heaven anyway, then life on Earth has no meaning, and nothing is good or bad any more, except what God decides, and that's out of our hands.<BR/><BR/>No thanks- I'll decide for myself what is good or bad.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-85599312294772151572007-05-23T19:38:00.000-07:002007-05-23T19:38:00.000-07:00@ zilch“So why kill the babies?” Imagine the alter...@ zilch<BR/><BR/>“So why kill the babies?” Imagine the alternative. Atheists complaining that every Amalekite was killed except for the babies, who were left alone to starve, be taken by predatory animals, fall from a precipice, etc.<BR/><BR/>If you believe that babies were killed, according to what it says in the Bible, know that it also says that God has the power and will to bring those innocents back when they can have a peaceful life, free from war, disease, famine and predatory animals. (Revelation 21:4)<BR/><BR/>There is one aspect of the difference between secular and religious systems that you failed to mention. The benefit of relying on Bible guidance for a better life now.<BR/><BR/>Developing a healthy fear of God, also encourages a lively conscience. Living a life that pleases God makes for plenty of smooth sailing. It’s not trouble free, but I’m looking forward to when it will be.Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-86529808951994475352007-05-23T19:16:00.000-07:002007-05-23T19:16:00.000-07:00@TheListenerIt seems like you're approaching athei...@TheListener<BR/><BR/>It seems like you're approaching atheism as just another religion when it is in fact the opposite. Everyone is an individual and has different thoughts. People's thoughts may overlap and hey, that's awesome, but atheism has no foundation for belief as you hint at here: "It Would Appear That Your "Wagerism" Or Atheism, That You Believe In So Strongly, And BAse Your Lives On,"<BR/><BR/>Thing is I'm reading your post that you think we atheists all just get together and plot against religion. Some may, but most reasonable, respectable atheists do not.<BR/><BR/>And regarding the arguing, nothing suffices conversation between any two people like a good debate. Were that untrue, you wouldn't be posting here.<BR/><BR/>Totally unrelated, but could you give your shift key a rest? As an editor, it's killing me that you capitalise the first letter of every single word.Wilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081035767898700065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-4740443293879666072007-05-23T18:51:00.000-07:002007-05-23T18:51:00.000-07:00@Zilch - you say:"Perhaps this was directed to AW,...@Zilch - you say:<BR/><BR/>"Perhaps this was directed to AW, but I'll answer if no one minds. There are a couple of reasons I, and many atheists, argue about God's existence. One is because we just like arguing"<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>By This Statement, It Would Appear That Your "Wagerism" Or Atheism, That You Believe In So Strongly, And BAse Your Lives On, Is Simply An Excuse To Argue? A Way To Start Conversation? <BR/><BR/><BR/>Am I Reading That Correctly Or Shall We Go Through Yet Another Constanly Repeated Atheist Loop Of The Same Old Story? <BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>@ Hank - you say:<BR/><BR/><BR/>"if it's warped to want to leave your child's decision about whether to be religious up to them when they're old enough, rather than marinate them in the religion of your ancestors as soon as they're born, thus giving them no choice in the matter, then please: colour me warped."<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>The More I Learn About Atheism, The More It Seems To Be Based On Rebelion. Your Words (And That Of Most Atheists) Would Indicate That At Some Point In Your Life You Began To Be Fed Up With Something Or Someone Who Believed In God and Therefore Have Taken Everything That We As Humans Have Been Taught Regarding The Existance OF A God And Tossed It Aside. <BR/><BR/>If Ive Said IT Once, Ive Said It Twice, Ive Said IT A Thousand Times: There Is No More Proof That God Doesnt Exsist Than There Is Proof That He Does.thelistenerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13042894537055100193noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-60737739320835231362007-05-23T18:14:00.000-07:002007-05-23T18:14:00.000-07:00@ AW Thank you for allowing me to point out the mi...@ AW <BR/><BR/>Thank you for allowing me to point out the mistakes in your post. It’s a quick job and our future discussion may reveal more. My Bible runs 1439 pages, Genesis through Revelation, so there’s a tremendous amount you’ve omitted. Despite that, I’ve highlighted the errors. Some have been covered at this site. (You do read these posts, don’t you?) Others will be.<BR/><BR/>Christianity: Christianity begins with Creation. Man arises in the Garden of Eden, sins, and is cast out. God is upset with his Creation and floods the world sparing <B>only Noah</B>. The world repopulates. <B>God strikes a strange bargain with Abraham trading the descendant’s of Abraham foreskins for the land of Israel.</B> The only problem was that there were people there already called Canaanites. God assures Abraham his descendants will be many and he is establishing a mighty nation. From the beginning, the Hebrews struggle, even with The One True God on their side. Abraham himself was forced to leave Israel, <B>which belonged to him as promised by God Himself, not once but twice.</B> Abraham’s great grandson eventually is sold to Egyptians and prospers there. A famine hits the divinely blessed Israel and the Jews are initially welcomed in Egypt until they are enslaved. Four hundred years go by and God decided to free His Chosen People. Instead of having a conversation with Pharaoh and pointing out the immorality of slavery, <B>God instead decides to “harden his heart”</B> and bring death and devastation upon the Egyptian people. Even though the Egyptians enslaved the Hebrews for four hundred years, their fate is nowhere near as bad as some of the other pagan tribes the Jews encounter on the way back to the Promised Land which flows of milk and honey (funny that these are not pictured on the Israeli tourism brochures). Along the way, God hands down the complete book of morals <B>which form a pretty good foundation for hating homosexuals,</B> slavery, and female repression. The Jews even after witnessing the power of the LORD firsthand can’t seem to stop their desire to worship idols. God commands the Jews to remember that He delivered them from slavery and this rite continues today as the Passover Seder.<BR/><BR/>Once in Israel, the trials of being the Chosen People do not end. Israel is invaded time and again and the Jews invent blame the victim mentality. For every failure of the Jewish state can be traced back to intermarriage and idolatry. <B>So, that’s Judaism for you: circumcision, possession of Israel, xenophobia/racism, genocide against non-Jews, and blame the victim. Not much of a religion, huh?</B><BR/><BR/>It does, however, get better. <B>After thousands of years</B> of being pissed at Adam and Eve, God came up with a way that we can ALL come to know Him. <B>The simplest way to accomplish this would be for God to forgive us once and for all,</B> show Himself, and provide a clear and moral set of rules to live by. That’s not what happened. Instead, God had a virgin impregnated <B>(one might say raped)</B> and brought His only begotten son on Earth in the form of Jesus. <B>Jesus was both fully human and fully God at the same time and managed to exist in two places at once so Christians are not polytheists (are you still with me?).</B> Jesus taught by <B>making a bunch of metaphors called</B> parables, worked a few miracles, abstained from sex and masturbation, and then was cruelly tortured and killed. His death is cause for celebration <B>because it opened the gates of Heaven to everyone, even a sinner like you!</B><BR/><BR/><B>The whole Jesus phenomenon is best described in this article:<BR/>http://evangelicalatheist.com/2005/08/28/god-is-a-dick-part-ix-crucifixion</B><BR/><BR/>The only thing I don’t like about this article is that I didn’t write it and therefore can’t take the credit. It sums up exactly what I think of the Christian mythology, except I might have called God an asshole instead of a dick but that’s just splitting hairs.<BR/><BR/>So Jesus died <B>and all was forgiven if we just accept Him into our hearts. Forty years or so </B>after his death, people finally got around to writing down all of His teachings. How much was corrupted through oral history forever remains unknown. Also along the way a one-time Jew and Christian tormenter named Paul met Jesus in a dream and began to spread the good word to everyone. That’s right – Paul never once talked to the living Jesus. Paul is considered to be one of the most influential people in the spreading of Christianity to non-Jews and NEVER ONCE MET THE MAN HE BASED HIS FAITH ON!<BR/><BR/><B>Paul made a lot of key decisions early on like making circumcision optional.</B> This made it easier to convert the pagans. I can easily see The Great Kiwi’s distant ancestor contemplating Judaism until he was told he would need to be circumcised whereupon he responded with a, “You want me to do what to my what now?”<BR/><BR/>It should also be noted that at the time Christianity took root, the Jews were horrified to be living under Roman occupation. The idea that foreigners could govern them on holy land rocked the foundation of their religion. They were absolutely DESPARATE for something to believe in. If God could not keep Israel for them, was God real?<BR/><BR/>Enter Christianity which promised a desperate people a new deal. And it spread. Eventually the Roman Empire was divided into Christians and Pagans until Constantine I decided to adopt Christianity. Before forcing the religion on the entire empire, there was a little pow wow at the Council of Nicaea in 325 AD, approximately 300 years after the death of Christ, where extremely important theological decisions were made and establishing a Christian theocracy.<BR/><BR/>The early founders of the Church warned of the End Times believing it would happen in their lifetimes. Two thousand years later and fear of the End Times <B>is still a fear technique used against unbelievers.</B> Jesus and God haven’t been seen in 2,000 years I don’t think we have much to worry about.<BR/><BR/>So that’s Christianity. Pour a foundation of a <B>corrupt religion</B> (Judaism), sprinkle in <B>mythology,</B> human sacrifice, and a promise. <B>Threaten people with hell.</B> Tell those who do not see the Truth in the Word that they have not received the Holy Spirit. <B>Meanwhile, it’s entirely possible that everything Jesus said was misinterpreted or made up.</B> One of the most influential people in the early Church never even met Jesus, but we’re supposed to believe that his dreams were guided by <B>a Holy Ghost?</B>Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.com