tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post7389455276274733715..comments2023-11-02T06:08:18.683-07:00Comments on Atheist's Wager: Christianity vs. Wagerism Part II: The Gift of ReasonEvanhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03596383179921442046noreply@blogger.comBlogger84125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-54968731657182552492007-05-31T06:39:00.000-07:002007-05-31T06:39:00.000-07:00I wouldn't wear one to the local Catholic church h...I wouldn't wear one to the local Catholic church here in Vienna either. But I'm sure it would have been cool in the church I used to attend in Berkeley, the University Lutheran Chapel. Gus the minister would have gotten a laugh out of it.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-63459971901333289022007-05-31T05:47:00.000-07:002007-05-31T05:47:00.000-07:00@ZilchI don't think I would wear it just out of re...@Zilch<BR/><BR/>I don't think I would wear it just out of respect at my local methodist church. The average attender probably wouldn't see the satire in it. I don't want any of them to have a heart attack :).<BR/><BR/>On the other hand, another faith community that I am part of would think it is hilarious. The Misfit Church would make it their slogan.Miraclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14140892900088954939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-42033138998436244622007-05-30T23:49:00.000-07:002007-05-30T23:49:00.000-07:00"The hook really is "believe in me and spread my W..."The hook really is "believe in me and spread my Word and you will live forever.”"<BR/><BR/>That's the other prong of the hook, bible student. But that doesn't make the hook real.<BR/><BR/>@ miracle- I'd like to hear what people in your church say about the "atheists for Jesus" t-shirt. I hope you don't get stoned for being a witch or an idolater.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-90906844231073398392007-05-30T17:31:00.000-07:002007-05-30T17:31:00.000-07:00@ zilchIt might seem like name calling at first gl...@ zilch<BR/><BR/>It might seem like name calling at first glance, deliberate or not, consider this.<BR/><BR/>The phrase “according to his superciliousness” is source of the alienation from God. By comparison, wicked. The hook really is "believe in me and spread my Word and you will live forever.”<BR/><BR/>2 Peter 3:9 says, “Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.”<BR/><BR/>We aren’t instructed to make “Rice Christians,” but those that are aware of the deep spiritual things that only a humble attitude will allow. We do want to be God’s <I>servants.</I><BR/><BR/>@ All<BR/><BR/>I’m sorry for the “missiles.”Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-57017983588701008982007-05-30T13:49:00.000-07:002007-05-30T13:49:00.000-07:00hahaI'm going to buy one to wear to church next su...haha<BR/><BR/>I'm going to buy one to wear to church next sunday.Miraclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14140892900088954939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-85098738868842551912007-05-30T07:51:00.000-07:002007-05-30T07:51:00.000-07:00Btw- for anyone who's interested, I've found an At...Btw- for anyone who's interested, I've found an <A HREF="http://www.cafepress.com/buy/atheist/-/pv_design_prod/pg_1/p_storeid.38300755/pNo_38300755/id_5771243/opt_/fpt_/c_360/" REL="nofollow">Atheists for Jesus</A> t-shirt, available at Cafe Press. In a clever twist, it says "Atheists for Jesus" on the front, and "Jesus for Atheists" on the back. Wear one and start a conversation! I'm getting me one next time I'm in the States.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-9707881695964531732007-05-30T01:48:00.000-07:002007-05-30T01:48:00.000-07:00One more point: the Biblical hook, which says "bel...One more point: the Biblical hook, which says "believe in me and spread my Word or you will go to Hell", is of course imbedded in a complex system of rules and stories which make it more convincing.<BR/><BR/>The bare-bones version of such a hook by itself is a chain mail: "Send this letter on to ten people. Don't break this chain, or you will end up like Fred Doofus, who laughed at me and the next day was creamed by a falling piano".<BR/><BR/>Naturally, the Bible deserves, and gets, more consideration than a chain mail. But the survival value, the fitness in the ideosphere, of the two hooks, should they happen to fall on fertile ground, is obviously similar.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-20080615134377432222007-05-30T00:20:00.000-07:002007-05-30T00:20:00.000-07:00@ mjd: you say"But if we were the result of random...@ mjd: you say<BR/><BR/>"But if we were the result of randomness, wouldn't we see a lot more human disorders, diseases, etc.?"<BR/><BR/>1) Life is not the result of randomness- you don't get the extreme amounts of order necessary for working organisms purely by chance. One aspect of evolution <I>is</I> random: the mutations of DNA that create different phenotypes (body forms). But what follows is anything but chance: natural selection ensures that, on the average, the forms better suited to survive will live to reproduce.<BR/><BR/>Please, before you say anything more about evolution being "random", take the time to inform yourself a bit. There's lots of information about evolution out there. Good place to start: <A HREF="http://www.talkorigins.org/" REL="nofollow">TalkOrigins</A>.<BR/><BR/>2) How much disease, disorder, and evil is "normal"? What's your point of comparison? Is there any reason to believe that there is an "appropriate" amount of "bad" stuff for an atheistic worldview, and a different proportion for a Christian worldview? Not unless you believe that, because you dislike pain and evil, someone must have done something bad so that we deserve to suffer. That's one of the hooks that religion offers us. The other big hook is a place to escape pain and evil. Whether the authors of the Bible thought this out, and cleverly made up these features, or simply saw what worked to motivate people and saw it as the Word of God, there's no knowing. Perhaps it was some of both.<BR/><BR/>@ bible student- you say<BR/><BR/>"Their argument is nothing new 3000 years ago the Psalmist wrote under inspiration, The wicked one according to his superciliousness makes no search; All his ideas are: “There is no God.”<BR/><BR/>In other words, those who do not believe in my religion are wicked, supercilious, and make no search. Not really an argument, just name-calling. This is also a common feature of most religions, and can readily be understood as another self-defense feature of a memeplex, which helps it to survive in the ideosphere. "Believe in me, or you're evil and will go to Hell".zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-79551998996149103972007-05-29T19:16:00.000-07:002007-05-29T19:16:00.000-07:00@miracleInteresting that you'd say that. I take it...@miracle<BR/><BR/>Interesting that you'd say that. I take it as a compliment, though I still do not belief :)Wilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081035767898700065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-54702732243112961922007-05-29T18:51:00.000-07:002007-05-29T18:51:00.000-07:00@MJDYou say that the world fits together perfectly...@MJD<BR/><BR/>You say that the world fits together perfectly, then when someone mentions natural disaster and biological problems you practically say "duh, its our own fault". Either agree that it doesn't fit together perfectly or not.<BR/><BR/>@Biblestudent<BR/>I think these people on this forum are closer to God than alot of my Christian friends. They are at least searching for the origins at all cost. They are willing to ask the questions that others are afraid.<BR/>Israel was stiff-necked because of their own choosing in Exodus. They had it all handed to them on a silver platter, but was selfish and ungrateful. They worshipped other gods because they didn't want to wait any more for Moses. I do not think anyone on this blog is an atheist because they are bored with God. They are doing quite possibly what Israel should've been when Moses left - Questioning and searching. You and MJD really are seeing the landscape wrong. They are in one sense (sorry atheists for this) praying and yet you are throwing missiles at them..<BR/><BR/>@everyone else<BR/>Sorry for the Christian discussion :).Miraclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14140892900088954939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-55770816521853609732007-05-29T13:57:00.000-07:002007-05-29T13:57:00.000-07:00@ MasterJDTheir argument is nothing new 3000 years...@ MasterJD<BR/><BR/>Their argument is nothing new 3000 years ago the Psalmist wrote under inspiration, <B>The wicked one according to his superciliousness makes no search; All his ideas are: “There is no God.”</B> (Psalm 10:4)<BR/><BR/>God is quite familiar with those who turn their back on Him. He called his own people Israel stiff-necked, and almost finished them off (Exodus 32:9,10).<BR/><BR/>Satan told Eve that she would be fine without God and you can check the news tonight for the results. Don’t watch with hope in man, even surrounded by this cast of great thinkers, the best they can do is blame, and call you sad.<BR/><BR/>Hang in there!Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-36654633204682741862007-05-29T13:04:00.000-07:002007-05-29T13:04:00.000-07:00@MiracleWell I don't think you're an embarrassment...@Miracle<BR/><BR/>Well I don't think you're an embarrassment to christianity or the human race... so you must be hiding it well ;-)<BR/><BR/>I'm not sure about the "god and your father" thing however, I know people who are close to their parents and close to "god", and people who aren't close to their parents but also reject religion. It's like women apparently "marry their father and become their mother" - maybe some do, but not necessarily (more that don't? I wonder).<BR/><BR/><BR/>@MGD<BR/><BR/>You're latest offering of arguments seem like the age old argument that goes "it it necessary that god exists, there fore he does". I don't understand how that is an argument or "proof" at all - and all I have to say to it is <B>prove your base case, damnit</B>.<BR/><BR/>If you read up on the current <I>scientific</I> theories about the beginning of the universe they're kinda mind blowing. But even though we don't know for sure yet - and may never - scientists who have spent their entire lives trying to work it out have not yet given up and invoked your "god of the gaps". What makes you think you know better? Knowledge? Proof? Evidence? Or desire - maybe because this world is too scary to you to go it alone. <BR/><BR/>You need to work out why it is you're arguing for this answer, and seemingly unwilling to critically evaluate the claims you make. If you think you can't do it without "god" - well, that's real sad. But it doesn't make you right.Catehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07545893381630826631noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-18386055650152066302007-05-29T12:59:00.000-07:002007-05-29T12:59:00.000-07:00@ MollyI think it’s you’re god that is OK with all...@ Molly<BR/><BR/>I think it’s you’re god that is OK with all the trouble. This way our God gets blamed.Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-54966646615179287832007-05-29T12:41:00.000-07:002007-05-29T12:41:00.000-07:00@ MollyYes, there is the bad, which, of course, is...@ Molly<BR/><BR/>Yes, there is the bad, which, of course, is explained in the Bible, because man sinned death entered the world. But if we were the result of randomness, wouldn't we see a lot more human disorders, diseases, etc.?anonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16128135340525035011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-7098907981829906102007-05-29T11:52:00.000-07:002007-05-29T11:52:00.000-07:00@MGDWhat fits together so perfectly? We have cance...@MGD<BR/><BR/>What fits together so perfectly? We have cancer, hurricanes, earthquakes, and Down Syndrome. None of those things were caused by humans making bad choices either. Either your god was a-ok with tornadoes and tsunamis and Tay-Sachs or the world really doesn't fit together all that well.Mollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14840408448581286291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-91455928129932619552007-05-29T11:45:00.000-07:002007-05-29T11:45:00.000-07:00@ IljaPerhaps the fact that everything on this ear...@ Ilja<BR/><BR/>Perhaps the fact that everything on this earth fits together so perfectly?anonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16128135340525035011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-36007950785879107042007-05-29T10:34:00.000-07:002007-05-29T10:34:00.000-07:00@ilja+miracleI have found that it is human nature ...@ilja+miracle<BR/><BR/>I have found that it is human nature to be curious, and to want to know the answers. In our more primitive times (perhaps even modern), that curiosity probably led to theism of both mono and polytheism to explain. For example in many polytheistic cultures such as the Mesopotamian, Egyptian, Greek, there are gods for different attributes such as Geb and Nut being the Egyptian gods personifying earth and water respectively. The monotheistic Abrahamic religion probably just saw it in a different way. Why have multiple gods attributing to little things when there could be an all powerful god, more powerful than all other gods. This god created everything.<BR/><BR/>Those were people's explanations for their questions - god(s) did it. In modern times, and even throughout history for that matter, we have developed a better need for understanding where the explanation of a god doesn't suffice. We want to know how things work, not just where they came from. Ultimately, in some cases this will result in the disbelief of deities.<BR/><BR/>I suppose my point is that we are naturally atheistic just like all the other animals out there, but are naturally theistic due to our early explanations and our not knowing any better. Teach a chimp to speak a language and you can teach him religion.Wilhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09081035767898700065noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-4742908102771574132007-05-29T10:19:00.000-07:002007-05-29T10:19:00.000-07:00@ Ilja Thank You for proving the Bible correct aga...@ Ilja <BR/><BR/>Thank You for proving the Bible correct again. Christians were warned “But a physical man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know [them], because they are examined spiritually.” (1 Corinthians 2:14) Paul realized that his message was not for everyone. Just an invitation. <BR/><BR/>Did you notice that I’ve answered your request on the “Christian Origins” page? Your welcome. Again you demand proof, but my efforts seem fruitless. Folks who don't mind Bible truth are more my speed.Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-5165319153644459132007-05-29T08:38:00.000-07:002007-05-29T08:38:00.000-07:00@ mjd- you say"But at some point the list is going...@ mjd- you say<BR/><BR/>"But at some point the list is going to end, resulting in a being who is infinite - never beginning or ending."<BR/><BR/>Or you don't start a list of gods in the first place: just start with the physical universe. You still don't know how it got here, but you don't have to postulate infinite omnipotent beings whose existence you can't explain either. That's what Occam's Razor is all about, as ilja said: the simplest explanation that covers all the facts is to be preferred.<BR/><BR/>Christianity certainly had founders: those who wrote the Bible were some of them. That says nothing one way or the other about the historicity of Jesus, however.<BR/><BR/>And if you're still in doubt about the possibility of a religion forming around a figure who quite likely doesn't exist, read about the <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult" REL="nofollow">cargo cults</A> and <A HREF="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum" REL="nofollow">John Frum</A>.zilchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01695741977946935771noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-25583776733099445602007-05-29T08:23:00.000-07:002007-05-29T08:23:00.000-07:00@MGDFirst, why is it easier for you to believe tha...@MGD<BR/>First, why is it easier for you to believe that some mega-god being has infinitely existed than it is for you to believe either the universe has infinitely existed OR that science isn't advanced enough to give us an explanation yet?<BR/><BR/>Secondly, who said that Jesus never existed? Not me. Stop trying to refocus the argument simply because you can't answer any of our questions.Mollyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14840408448581286291noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-28535261945702241742007-05-29T07:52:00.000-07:002007-05-29T07:52:00.000-07:00@ MJDBecause we are not talking about just another...@ MJD<BR/><BR/>Because we are not talking about just another human here, but supposedly the son of god, the supposed creator of the world. If god exists and everything took place as described in Genesis, then we are dealing with a massive force capable of absolutely everything. Do you realize the entire extent of this? I mean, God the Almighty, doesn’t this sound at least awe-inspiring?<BR/><BR/>If he exists, then why are we having this debate at all? It should be enough to just go out and wait a while, and sooner or later you should see some amazing proof of his omnipotence that would remove all doubt. So, any example you can think of? Me neither.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00916512943058406592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-77887744107151845962007-05-29T06:50:00.000-07:002007-05-29T06:50:00.000-07:00@ Molly & ZilchYes, I know, "where did that god co...@ Molly & Zilch<BR/><BR/>Yes, I know, "where did that god come from?" He could have come from another god, who could have come from another god, who could have come from another god, etc., etc. The list could go on and on. But at some point the list is going to end, resulting in a being who is infinite - never beginning or ending. As I said before, just think of our number system - it's the same characteristic of infinite.<BR/><BR/><BR/>And for the existence of Jesus: as time goes on, it becomes infinitely easier to deny the fact that someone existed. Even Shakespeare's existence is refuted by some people, and look at all the evidence for him. And he's only been gone for about 500 years. It doesn't really come as a surprise that after 2000 years, there isn't much in the way of "evidence" for Jesus. And besides, you allow that the founders for every other religion exist ... why not Jesus?anonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16128135340525035011noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-86737842835886690382007-05-29T05:15:00.000-07:002007-05-29T05:15:00.000-07:00@mollya universe where the universe is the origina...@molly<BR/>a universe where the universe is the original just was is pantheism which Hinduism falls into. The universe has become God.<BR/><BR/><BR/>@ilja<BR/>Thanks for explaining the razor theory. I still think denying God's existence is still flawed because it is the more probable. They both need some logical leapfrogging. Then again, I can respect your decision because your interpretation of the evidences says it is this way just as mine says it is the other.<BR/><BR/>You said if it was natural to believe in the Christian [Jewish and Islam included] God then there wouldn't be so many others. If this is true it doesn't mean atheism is the natural way. The abundance of religions could actually be evidence to say that the natural way is towards God. I still hold that we cannot determine the natural way though. It is a subjective and untestable idea.<BR/>I don't think believing in God is a cop-out either. It doesn't provide everything we desire to know in an easy to digest form. There are still so many who's, what's, where's and how's that will come and be present after I have died. One can make God a cop-out, but the same person can make nature one also.Miraclehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14140892900088954939noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-26377740313026282092007-05-29T05:11:00.000-07:002007-05-29T05:11:00.000-07:00@ BSThe sky is blue because whenever i look up (du...@ BS<BR/><BR/>The sky is blue because whenever i look up (during a day with no clouds), i see – it’s blue. Where do i have to look to see god?<BR/><BR/><I>“This does not allow me to deny his existence, in view of the other evidence I have.”</I><BR/><BR/>What evidence?<BR/><BR/>I’ve read eye-witness accounts of pink elephants flying all over the place, and grey aliens taking over the world. Hallucinations, you say? But John has written down the absolute truth, you say? Hmm, yeah, if i have your and his word on that, then i suppose he’s right…<BR/><BR/>Sorry if this sounds rude, but without any substantial arguments your are as convincing as a child who believes in Superman. Except the child doesn’t claim that Superman has created the world.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00916512943058406592noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2627394959317905553.post-1772536087945891762007-05-29T04:27:00.000-07:002007-05-29T04:27:00.000-07:00@ zilchThe sky has looked blue for many years. The...@ zilch<BR/><BR/>The sky has looked blue for many years. There is a reason for this. Whether I believe it or not, the sky still looks blue. It looked blue to my grandfather’s grandfather, who didn’t have a good explanation available, as to why. He did not deny that the sky looked blue, he knew what blue meant, the same color as blue jays. Not knowing why these things were, did not allow him to deny that they were. <BR/><BR/>As a child, I was taught that God has existed forever. There may be an explanation for this, I don‘t know yet, but I‘m still young. Since he is a spirit, I’m not sure that I will ever understand what makes him tick. This does not allow me to deny his existence, in view of the other evidence I have. <BR/><BR/>@ Ilja<BR/><BR/>I have read the eyewitness account of someone who has seen God (John 1:18). Not only a brief glimpse, but together for billions of years. They were so close, that a good lawyer made the case that my witness’ personal trait reflect the image of God, as a mirror would (Hebrews 1:3). <BR/><BR/>We’ve had this conversation before. If it were science, the suffix would be -ology. It’s a belief system. Believe it or not. What matters is how long you will be around to explain your ideas.Bible studenthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06285279271865107834noreply@blogger.com