Monday, April 30, 2007

@Paul

From the comments:
“@ AW - Jewbashing is ugly. please stop. It does not make you a better person. In fact belittleing (sic) any culture that you obviously don't understand only reflects bad upon yourself. Sit with a rabbi someday and ask him some of your questions. I think you'll be very suprised (sic) to know what he will respond.”

I have been called many things in my life, being called a Jewbasher is an absolute first. I am, in fact, an ex-Jew! I still value a culture that can produce both Einstein and Jack Black and respect the culture. I just don’t dig Yahweh and find the religion absolutely repulsive. Almost every Jew I’ve ever met has not read the OT and have been spoon fed the nice parts of the story while skipping past the ugly. However, I feel like I’m starting in the middle of a story, so let’s step back a little.

In the beginning… Two Brooklyn Jews married and had two children. The youngest they named Wager. They looked upon their creation and said that it was good. They moved to Arizona when Wager was four years old. Being Brooklyn Jews, they spent most of their lives around other Jews. Occasionally in NYC, they may have been the minority, but it was rare. The schools on the East Coast actually shut down for Yom Kippur and other Jewish Holy Days. In Arizona… not so much.

The Brooklynites did not do much to bring Wager into the Jewish religion. Wager was circumcised in a hospital on his third day, not be a Moyle on the tenth as tradition dictates. Hanukkah was celebrated but Sabbath candles were never lit. The female Brooklynite would occasionally say stuff that started with “Jews believe…” but she never had a Bat Mitzvah and is very ignorant of the actually Torah. The male Brooklynite was very wise in the ways of the Jewish religion and did not think it was worth passing on to his descendents. To this day, he classifies himself as “agnostic”.

Wager has never, ever admitted this to anyone before (not even his wife), but when he was four and a half, he actually believed he was speaking to God and Jesus on a regular basis. Shortly after a memorable airplane ride, little Wager learned that he could open up tubes inside his head to relieve the pressure on his ears. Whenever, Wager did this, a deep bass humming sound was heard within his head. At first, it seemed like a neat little trick but soon he was doing it frequently. Somehow, Wager was convinced that when he heard that deep noise inside his head, he was talking to God and Jesus.

One day, Wager told a friend that he talked to Jesus. His friend responded with a simple, “Jews don’t believe in Jesus.”

Wager was very puzzled so he asked the Brooklynites. The male Brooklynite stated that Jews believe that Jesus was a man who may have said some very interesting things, but was still just a man like the rest of us. From that day forward, Wager never talked to God again and acknowledged that the noises he was hearing was a direct result of him opening the tubes that connected his throat to his ears.

Years passed and there was no religious indoctrination. Wager’s sister passed her thirteenth birthday without a Bat Mitzvah. Then, one day, Wager was about ten years old and was at a street fair when he passed a person preaching. It was real fire and brimstone type stuff and the man was very passionate about the notion of salvation and avoiding hell. Wager had no idea what the man was talking about, but he was scared because he knew that he was not saved. Wager went unto the Brooklynites and declared that he needed to learn about God. The Brooklynites were overjoyed and enrolled him in the nearest temple.

At this point, Wager was a year behind in the process to become a Bar Mitzvah (son of the commandment). However, he was determined. Wager spent the entire first year learning how to read Hebrew and by the end of the year, he was able to read and write. Wager didn’t think the first year about what any of it meant, he merely went to temple as instructed and learned as he was told. Learning to read a new language was hard enough so there was no time to challenge the status quo.

By the second year, Wager was comfortable with the ritual of being a Jew and could read the Hebrew language but was unsatisfied when it came to what it MEANT to be a Jew. None of this was taught at his temple. Wager started to refer to it as a “Bar Mitzvah factory” and believed that he was acting like a trained monkey. He found it ironic that so much emphasis was being placed on learning how to read Hebrew so he could have a Bar Mitzvah in front of his friends and family who DIDN’T SPEAK A WORD OF HEBREW. It all seemed so pointless. By the end of year two, he felt that he was no closer to God.

As his Bar Mitzvah approached, Wager sincerely believed that there was no God. However, by now it was too late. Plans had been made, airfare had been purchased, a photographer hired, etc. Wager and the Brooklynites came to an agreement that he would have his Bar Mitzvah and then he would be free not to go to temple again. So Wager dutifully performed in front of his friends and family, made $2k, and never set foot in a temple again.

By the time Wager was sixteen, he was out of the closet and open about being an atheist. Numerous students tried to save him by taking him to a Bible study or the Fellowship of Christian Athletes or whatever. All to no avail. One of Wager’s most respected friends at one point even invoked a form of Pascal’s Wager on him where he said unto Wager, “Wager – thou dost not partake in any activity that would be offensive to thine God. Thou dost not drink nor act in a promiscuous fashion. Since thou wouldst not need to change thine behavior in any way, why dost thou not start believing in God, you know – just in case?”

Wager stood fast in his beliefs and received the nickname “the benevolent atheist”. Since Wager liked the name “benevolent atheist” much more than his previous handle, “the six foot Jew” (Wager is 6’4”), he made sure that it stuck.

More time passed and Wager had met Mrs. Wager. They knew each other (chuckle) and a Baby Wager came along. Wager started thinking very long and very hard about how he would raise his infant son so as to avoid all the confusion that he had to go through. He thought long and hard about it.

One day, Wager got bored and put together a little essay. He looked it and said that it was decidedly mediocre but posted it on a blog anyway. A few weeks passed by and Paul accused him of being an anti-Semite and Wager found this hilarious.

Anyway, that’s my – I mean Wager’s story. I just wanted to clear up that I’m not anti-Jew specifically. I am anti-Jewish, anti-Christian, and anti-Muslim as I find all such Abrahamic faiths equally worthless.

35 comments:

Molly said...

"I find all such Abrahamic faiths equally worthless"

Though the Hindu's have some good ideas. Mostly in painting EVERYTHING bright colors and drinking bhang lassi.

David said...

You non believer, you just simply don't understand through your clout of bigotry!

Just replace every ambiguity with a religion and voila, we've got religious debate.

Bible student said...

@AW

It's a hard knocks life!

The ancient Chinese warrior Sun Tzu taught his men to "know your enemy" before going into battle. For if "you know your enemy and know yourself," he wrote, "you need not fear the result of a hundred battles." But, Sun Tzu warned, "If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat."

Atheists, exhibit the same rage against false religion, as God. Some of the best known stories from the Bible, exhibit this.

His son, Jesus Christ, violently cleared the courtyard of the temple, in Jerusalem, of those charging exorbitant prices, for the prescribed necessities of worship. He is known for calling the Jewish religious leaders, on different occasions, blind guides, sons of Satan and hypocrites. They in turn had him killed.

On the “Allow Me to Retort” page, I cited some of the religious practices that the locals were practicing, including human sacrifice. You, though, were complaining about the remedy.

Most all religious rituals and symbols can be traced to ancient Babylon, according to “The Religion of the Babylonians and Assyrians” by Morris Jastrow, Jr., Ph. D.

Not surprisingly, the Bible book of Revelation, says God will put it in the hearts of world leaders, to kill off the harlot named “Babylon The Great” (Revelation 17:16,17). Finishing religion.

So rave on! You’re in good company.

MasterJediDan said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Small Fish in a Big Pond said...

@Paul you really put your foot in your keyboard when you wrote that AW was belittling a culture he didn't understand. (Exact quote - "belittleing any culture that you obviously don't understand" ). Perhaps you should be a little more judicious with your words. (sounds like a pun)

Well done once again, AW. I enjoyed getting to know you a little better. It gives credibility to your opinions to know that you have seen the pointlessness of religion firsthand.

superzombie said...

@ Wager

"I find all such Abrahamic faiths equally worthless"

I am in agreement, AW. Hmm... I wonder. If I walk into a bar and find a Christian, a Jew and Muslim together (or sitting in proximity of each other) and I call Moses a warlock, would they all get pissed.

@ Molly

Good call on the dharmic art but it is more pleasant than ancient Roman capital punishment pieces.

@ biblestudent

Hey guy. Did you fully read AW's post? There was part of a sentence that I want you to read again. Then again. Then once more. Here it is: "acting like a trained monkey".

Also, you're trying too hard. You're coming off like a Mormon... or is it a Jehova's Witness? No matter. Look, you'll have much better chances at recruiting by going to a bar and finding some poor sap who's just drunk enough to listen to anything but not drunk enough to pass out, you know? Let me know if this advice helps.

And one more time for the money shot: "acting like a trained monkey".

Bible student said...

@superzombie

"acting like a trained monkey" did hit home with me. I was raised Roman Catholic. I won’t go back there, either. No amount of ritual can make a flawed message palatable.

As to the advise, it doesn’t work. Drunks forget.

By the way, how’s your head this morning?

choosebro said...

@bstudent

"No amount of ritual can make a flawed message palatable."

I thought you were the one defending religion.

MasterJediDan said...

@ Choosebro

He is, but as he and Atheistwager have pointed out, traditions are generally empty and lead you no closer to a relationship with God.

superzombie said...

@ biblestudent

You misunderstood; I'm not the poor sap drunk off my ass. My head's fine, thanks. No drinking last night. Finals this week.

So you jumped out of the Roman Catholic pot into another Abrahamic religion? I've run into ex-catholics a few times; Catholicism is pretty good about producing oppressed creatures. And whether they found another religion is really hit or miss. Eh, either way, enjoy your opium, biblestudent.

Molly said...

@ superzombie

As a "recovering Catholic" and as someone dating a "recovering Catholic" I can assure you that being indoctrinated into the Catholic religion will screw you up. I can't say whether it is worse or better than other religions, because I wasn't raised in one, but I can tell you that the burden of guilt is tremendous.

Paul said...

Wager - I think you just got somewhere with your journey. I caint (sic) remember where it was that I saw the Jewbashing, but I know for sure that what I saw was definitely more offensive than thoughtful. Thank you for this post, though.

What you did here is certainly amazing. It is very cathartic to examine one's self and one's ideas of what God is. What is also clear here is that you are definitely not finished, which I am glad to know. I was going to drop in one or two more times and call it a game because I was getting bored with it, but now you've intrigued me enough that I'll stop by one more time, at least. Heck, the name check will get you at least three more visits. And I'll try to drop a few more gems. Whatever it takes to get noticed.

Can you tell me, what do you think God is? Maybe another day. There's much more to it than just saying a bearded guy in the sky. You really have to examine why folks want there to be a bearded guy in the sky, what folks gain from believing, what that tingle up your spine is when the biochemical process known as the religious experience happens (yes, I know, you get that when you...[insert your own activity here]) and not from the Bible. Or, is this blog your religious experience?

Condemning people is easy. Condemning a myth is even easier. Examining it, deconstructing it and understanding it is the difficult part. Once you have done that, then the discussion moves to a meta-religious level. That's where the real gains are made. Two things I really despise are lazy atheists and lazy liberals. They're even worse than right-wing neocon religious zealots. Why? Because they're just as soft in the head and do nothing to promote knowledge, intelligence and critical thinking.

For what it is worth, I'll give a little quid here and you can find more in my untended blogs from long ago through my profile, if you are interested (there's a religious one there also). I am more or less what I like to call Juddhist. It depends on the situation as to what hat I wear. When it comes time to remember my ancestors who escaped almost certain death at the hands of the third reich, I will be your little Jew-boy. When it comes to how I practice my life, I am more or less Buddhist. I am both and neither, Wager-san.

I have spent as much time in both temples and find solace in knowing my heritage *and* how to live. When it is time for faith, though, I'll let you in on a little secret: if you think faith is going to stop your doubt, then there is no point. Faith is worthless unless you have nothing. Not having doubt is much more satisfying. And, no, if you're wondering, God, Jesus, the Spirit or any of those things have ever spoken to me. Ganesh, on the other hand, sitting here on my desk in blatant violation of the first amendment (or was that commandment?) speaks to me, but in a metaphorical sort of way.

I have had nothing and that was when I lost my faith. I was in the figurative gutter. A million little pieces, if you will. A real life million little pieces. I asked God and Jesus for help. There was never any answer. So I wne out and looked for some dope. Found it. A year later I figured it all out. By that I mean *all* of it.

I can't make my gnosis yours, but I can rebut lazy arguments and type bbaddly (sic). In general, by my count (and it is right) there are four camps: agnostics who don't want to know; believers who take someone else's word for it; atheists who deny reality; and gnostics who have found out what *it* is. By *it*, I mean all of *it*.

The most painful to become is gnostic, because it means taking on the tough topics, taking the baby out of the bathwater and examining the bathwater, maybe even taking a drink. But it is the most satisfying to be because it means you will never miss a night's sleep wrestling with these things.

The easiest to be is agnostic because it means doing nothing. The most painful to be is atheist because it means living in denial of the world around you and constantly being confronted by things that make you wretch from the cognitive dissonance. Almost as bad as being a believer. I've lived in all four camps an dlike my current one the best.

I'll share two things I gnow:
1) Man made God in his own image;
2) Everyone and everything are all one and the same.

Ask yourself why 1) and how 2). Everything else just fills itself in after you have that answer. (42!)

One more little rule to live by: never have faith in anything you can't control, because it is a disaster waiting to happen. I think Benjamin Franklin famously quipped that God helps those who help themselves. There's a whole lotta wisdom in that statement.

That said,

@ small fish - um...yeah. He says, if you were paying attention, "By the second year, Wager was...unsatisfied when it came to what it MEANT to be a Jew. None of this was taught at his temple...By the end of year two, he felt that he was no closer to God." AW admits he doesn't understand because it was never taught. Dogpile on fish.

Or wait was that Dogpile on MJD? Or Bible student? Oh, well, I'm a big boy - you can dogpile on me, but ladies first.

MasterJediDan said...

@ Paul

So everyone and everything are the same? Is this one of those beliefs that says that we humans are equal to animals and plants? If it is, I'd like to say something about that. Humans are distinctly different from animals. We humans can 1. think abstractly, while animals can't; and 2. we can tell the difference between good and evil. Just giving you something to think about.

brenden said...

@ MasterJediDan

We are made of meat. We have bones, blood, brains, hair, limbs. The only difference is that we outwardly present the quality of abstract thought.

Atheistwager said...

@Paul
Lots of stuff here to digest. I promise to outline my own personal philosophies in the near future. Thank you for your participation. We can take the conversation offline and compile here if you want or continue to correspond in the comments section.

@MJD
You do realize that chimpanzees are capable of using tools and have been demonstrated to show morality? We're not so special after all.

paul said...

My golly Dan, how fundamentalist do you have to be to think that we are not carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, proton, neutrons, electrons, quarks, bosons...

Or do these things, for which we have direct proof, not exist? If your God created everything, does it not logically follow that He would make everything out of the same 'clay'. Is faith that blinding to reality?

I realize I took a swipe at believers a minute ago, but for heaven's sake, think it through. Corporeal reality does not change based on beliefs. That dissonance must be deafening! Believers are people, too. Just misled, just like blind atheists.

And I know this is the wrong topic, but I know now everyone's going to be looking for my comments on this one, so here goes -

On the last post I saw a comment about how the Exodus must not have happened because there's no physical evidence. That is certainly a very compelling argument, especially if you're talking about evolution from the perspective of creationism. That is just the sort of lazy rhetoric I am against. As time goes on, who's to say what they'll find?

Furthermore, the event was definitely a watershed moment (nyuk nyuk) in Jewish history, but who's to say they didn't Paul Bunyon the story a bit? Why would it be that significant to the Eqyptian historians? Maybe the pharoh was so embarrassed, he just let it not go down in history? Maybe it was a much bigger deal to the Israelites?

And then there was the wandering through the desert quip: remember, they were looking for land to occupy. There was no unoccupied land. 40 years to live as nomads after over a century as slaves is not that big of a deal. Time for us is much different than it was then. Heck, it coulda been 40 weeks, for all we know. I am certainly in the camp that the record keeping is suspect. A few exaggerations here, a little making it up there, isn't that how legends are born, even today?

Our existence is profound. What we do with it is profane.

Paul Reuben said...

DMMT - So many comments to read!

AW - now there is a rich topic: what separates us from the animals? That is perhaps one of the richest and most malleable myths ever.

Was it the thumb? I was told this as a child. Freaking chimps have thumbs on their feet!

The ability to use tools? You already addressed that one.

Language? I think I heard recently one on birds using languae, with syntax and everything, but that may have been debunked. I do know, though, that cephalopods have a type of sign language with thie rlight-up skin.

The list goes on.

AW - I like the tet-a-tet here, but I'll drop you a line anyway. THX

To all - Happy May Day.

Paul Reuben said...

dangit! paul reuben is paul, by the way. I just married up my old blogger identity with my google id so that y'all could see my old blogs, for what that is worth.

MasterJediDan said...

@ paul

Lol, I didn't mean that way. Of course we are all made up of elements like carbon, hydrogen, etc. What I meant is the way we think. Have you ever seen an animal tell between good and evil? I haven't, due to the fact that we're different from animals. Evolution can explain for physical changes, but what about mental capabilities? Can it account for that? Granted, we have some of the same physical characteristics as, say, an ape, but we certainly don't have the same mental characteristics. On a different note though, the Israelites didn't spend 40 years looking for a land to settle in. They spent 40 years wandering around in the wilderness because they got to Jericho but were too afraid to invade it. So God punished them by making them wander around for 40 years. Just thought I'd clear that up.

kitty said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
kitty said...

@ MGD

"Evil" is basically a religious concept, so I would say I haven't seen a human choose between "good and evil", more choose between actions which had different affects on their interests and those of society (the tribe) - good, negative, and neutral.

Animals also work for the good of the tribe/pack. Some of them even demonstrate altruistic behavior.

I'm not going to argue that humans aren't more evolved than chimps, but biblical inspired "morality" isn't going to make the distinction.

brenden said...

@ MasterJediDan

Mental capacity is a function of the physical brain, and the physical brain has evolved. Not only that, but the mental behaviour of a creature both is affected and effects the physical characteristics of it.

Have you ever sat down and asked an animal if it knew the difference between good and evil? No, because there's a big enough communication barrier to prevent it. Animals may have that concept, the only problem is that we do not have the capacity to detect it in them.

Bible student said...

Long term planning……… c’mon, I’m taking a poll, who thought I was going to say immortal soul?

Chimps figure out how to get the fruit from the tree. We plant orchards so our offspring can eat and then retire well, when the land is sold to make room for the mall.

The beaver builds a dam for his permanent home. Man builds a hydroelectric dam so his home will be heated from now on.

Which animal has a 401k.

How many here can imagine the ol’ concept of hell? Eternal torture. Whose pet can? From what I read (Ecclesiastes 3:11), that’s a gift.

and @superzombie

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people.

Who could write poetry like that?

I hope your exams go well!

brenden said...

@ Bible Student

Regardless as to how advanced humans may be compared to the other animals, that doesn't in any way make us less animal.

Humans are different from the other animals in the way you describe - abstract thought, waterfront homes, some kind of retirement plan the Americans think the rest of the world cares about. But it doesn't mean anything and frankly I don't see your point.

Which other animal would need a "401k", anyway? And why would the ability to imagine and fear a place of fire and pain be considered a gift?

Bible student said...

@brenden

**WARNING**
Scriptural citations contain additional information. Though repulsive to some, reading such imparts knowledge, pertinent to the conversation.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage

Ecclesiastes 3:11 (New International Version) says in part, “He has also set eternity in the hearts of men”. If one can grasp the imaginary idea of eternal torture, they also have the ability to reason on eternal reward.

“Keeping your eyes on the prize,” as it’s called, can only be done in abstract thinking. It’s motivation that some rely on to get through their day.

Animals do amazing thing, by instinct. None show signs of imagination. Yes, I agree that we are all made of the same “clay” and rot the same when we die.

MasterJediDan said...

@ Kitty

Evil isn't a religious concept. We see evil every day around us: (I'll give some examples here) Suicide bombers who kill people, people sold into slavery, girls trafficked in America as sex slaves, a bully on a playground beating up another kid, etc., the list goes on and on, I'm sure you'll be able to think of some.

Molly said...

@ bible student

Gorillas have used tools to peruse food. They have been videotaped using sticks to measure water depth, rocks to smash nuts opened, and sticks to eat termites. They have also used tree bark as a type of bridge over muddy water. That sounds pretty imaginative to me.

kitty said...

@ MGD

The word "evil" is a religious concept, as is this idea that only humans can distinguish between "good and evil".

I'm not denying that people do terrible things, but to say they do so because they "choose evil" is overly simplistic. The suicide bombers in your example - they think that what they do pleases their god. They have made a bad choice for their own survival, and a bad choice for society - and their motivation is a religion not that dissimilar to yours. Think about it - I doubt they think they're "choosing evil" - quite the opposite.

Your reasoning seems to be somewhat circular. If you say that humans are superior to animals essentially because the bible says so, and this is disputed (since the worth of the bible as a scientific resourse is, imo, destroyed by it's poor approximation of pi), replying with more religious concepts is probably not going to cut it.

MasterJediDan said...

@ Kitty

First of all, I haven't mentioned the Bible anywhere in this post's comments, so I'm not sure where you're getting that from. The suicide bombers see what they're doing as good, yes, but think about some other examples. Let's say, for example, the slave trade of girls for sex. The people who do this know it is wrong, yet they still do it.

Now, let me ask you. Have you ever seen an animal express the knowledge between right and wrong? I sure haven't, my dog doesn't stop to think about whether what he's doing is right or wrong. He just acts on instinct.

One last thing...I find it hilarious that you have decided that the Bible has no value as a scientific resource simply because it says that pi is 3 instead of 3.14159... The approximation was written in the B.C.'s. In other words, thousands of years ago. Do you think they had instruments to measure anything that accurately? Of course not. And besides, if it was written in the Bible as 3.14159..., wouldn't it look very suspicious, as if someone had written it very recently? (as in past few hundred years). So estimating it at 3 is the best they could do. I mean, it's not like they said it was 4 or 2. They had the closes whole number. If you're going to completely ignore the Bible in scientific terms, you're going to have to find something better against it.

kitty said...

@ MGD

Is a scriptural citation not mentioning the bible? Sorry - my mistake.

Does your dog trash the furniture? Does it defacate inside? Does it bite people at random?

I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm not denying some people do terrible things - I'm disputing their motivation and your labelling of it. Sometimes people do things that negatively affect society because they think the benefit to themselves is worth it. I guess in the animal kingdom this is about equivalent to the animal that kills another one over a mate. They've negatively affected their tribe (it's now smaller). but they've secured a breeding partner - which improves things for them.

There are a whole lot other flaws in the bible, and I personally choose not to derive my morals from something that clearly condones rape. And sure at the time it was written they didn't have much in the way of technology but I was under the impression that you thought it was divinely inspired. Couldn't god come up with something better than 3? How about 3.1? C'mon, as a historical text it has some worth, but science? Hell no. In the 21st century, we can do somewhat better than that.

MasterJediDan said...

@ Kitty

No, I have a golden retriever -- the best type of dog (in my opinion, lol), so he's pretty good-natured.

You say that the Bible has a lot of other flaws -- could you please point them out to me?

Lastly, the Bible wasn't written in the 21st century. Do you really think that a person's faith in God depends on whether the Bible says that pi is 3 or 3.1? The number isn't life-changing.

Miracle said...

@the human and animal debate

I have read everyone's comments and would like to insert my two cents. I honestly do not know why this is such an important debate of whether or not humans are animals. As a Christian I do say we are animals and I've seen plenty of dogs who show creative actions, feelings, and some logical conclusion. Then again, what does intelligence have anything to do with it. Is a bear closer to God because he's strong or a blue whale because he the biggest? I would say we are different from other animals in that our intelligence is vastly superior, but its not for our own vanity. As a man of faith, I would consider our purpose in the world as a dog rounding up sheep or cattle. They both are animals but because of the dog's intelligence he can help protect and manage the sheep/cattle.

Either way, us being on a higher platform or equal with other animals doesn't prove or disprove God. It truly is a wasteless conversation for Christians to be tackling.

kitty said...

@ MGD

I don't know anything about dog breeds, sorry. Really the thing I think you should think about here is why a dog in the wild behaves differently to a dog you keep as a pet. You've trained your dog so it doesn't behave "badly", similar to the social conditioning that humans have in order to live harmoniously in society. It doesn't just do whatever pops into it's head - hence why it's not defacating inside and biting anyone and everyone.

As for the flaws in the bible, it's contradictory, and has a dubious moral framework. There is little proof of many of the "events" it documents. But if you search for it you'll be able to find a far better and in depth critique of it than I can be bothered with here.This quiz is a good place to start: http://ffrf.org/quiz/bquiz.php

As for the importance of pi. I can only say - have you done any math? Pi is used in most aspects of mechanics, and fyi the Babylonians had an approximation of 3 1/8 (3.125) - and look when they lived ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia )

Ceryle said...

@AW

Thank you for sharing such a personal part of your life.

BTW, I call myself and "atheist the hard way" - I was brought up in a religion (Lutheran), and while I had blind faith while I was a child, my parents encouraged me to take a broad range of subjects in high school and university - being exposed to new ideas made me question everything, the bible included (which wasn't their intention). My brother is an atheist the easy way (he just doesn't actively believe)

@Paul

Why does being an atheist who has come to this through thought and questioning make me someone who denies reality?

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